#352 Wayne Turmel: Leading Without Micromanaging in the Hybrid Mess
Hybrid work was supposed to be the future—but it’s feeling more like a tug-of-war.
Wayne Turmel, co-author of The Long-Distance Leader, has spent two decades studying how we lead across distance—and what falls apart when we don’t. In this episode, Wayne explains why most return-to-office plans are more negotiation than strategy, how unexamined proximity bias silently shapes promotions, and why hybrid leadership isn’t about place—it’s about intentionality.
Whether you’re managing global teams or trying to avoid burnout-by-Zoom, this conversation will help you rethink what modern leadership actually requires—and how to do it without micromanaging or burning people out.
Key Highlights of Our Interview:
Leadership Before Location: The First Rule of Remote Work
“If you’re a weak leader in person, remote will make it worse. Hybrid just exposes the cracks faster.”
Genghis Khan Didn’t Need WebEx—You Don’t Need Chaos
“Leading from afar isn’t new. But today, we confuse tech tools with leadership itself.”
Proximity Bias: The Promotion No One Talks About
“People in the office get more attention—whether we mean to favor them or not. That’s not strategy. That’s inertia.”
Why Hybrid Isn’t Really Hybrid
“Three-day compromises aren’t hybrid strategies. Most companies are just seeing how far they can push before people quit.”
Deep Work, Loud Offices, and Cake in the Break Room
“Don’t bring people back just to distract them. Save the office for coaching, collaboration, and trust-building.”
Synchronous vs. Asynchronous: It’s About Time (Literally)
“If you’re clocking in remotely on someone else’s schedule, you’re not working hybrid—you’re just working differently.”
Amazon, Turnover, and the Future of Micromanagement
“With 150% annual churn, maybe it’s not a location problem. Maybe it’s a leadership one.”
High Finance vs. High Flexibility
“Jamie Dimon’s playbook may work for Wall Street. But others are asking: does it have to be that way?”
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Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Wayne Turmel--Chief Change Officer--
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